gorgias-第4部分

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earned　carpentering　a　carpenter？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　he　who　has　learned　music　a　musician？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　he　who　has　learned　medicine　is　a　physician；　in　like　manner？　He　who　has　learned　anything　whatever　is　that　which　his　knowledge　makes　him。　　　Gor。　Certainly。　　　Soc。　And　in　the　same　way；　he　who　has　learned　what　is　just　is　just？　　　Gor。　To　be　sure。　　　Soc。　And　he　who　is　just　may　be　supposed　to　do　what　is　just？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　must　not　the　just　man　always　desire　to　do　what　is　just？　　　Gor。　That　is　clearly　the　inference。　　　Soc。　Surely；　then；　the　just　man　will　never　consent　to　do　injustice？　　　Gor。　Certainly　not。　　　Soc。　And　according　to　the　argument　the　rhetorician　must　be　a　just　man？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　will　therefore　never　be　willing　to　do　injustice？　　　Gor。　Clearly　not。　　　Soc。　But　do　you　remember　saying　just　now　that　the　trainer　is　not　to　be　accused　or　banished　if　the　pugilist　makes　a　wrong　use　of　his　pugilistic　art；　and　in　like　manner；　if　the　rhetorician　makes　a　bad　and　unjust　use　of　rhetoric；　that　is　not　to　be　laid　to　the　charge　of　his　teacher；　who　is　not　to　be　banished；　but　the　wrong…doer　himself　who　made　a　bad　use　of　his　rhetoric…he　is　to　be　banished…was　not　that　said？　　　Gor。　Yes；　it　was。　　　Soc。　But　now　we　are　affirming　that　the　aforesaid　rhetorician　will　never　have　done　injustice　at　all？　　　Gor。　True。　　　Soc。　And　at　the　very　outset；　Gorgias；　it　was　said　that　rhetoric　treated　of　discourse；　not　＇like　arithmetic＇　about　odd　and　even；　but　about　just　and　unjust？　Was　not　this　said？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　I　was　thinking　at　the　time；　when　I　heard　you　saying　so；　that　rhetoric；　which　is　always　discoursing　about　justice；　could　not　possibly　be　an　unjust　thing。　But　when　you　added；　shortly　afterwards；　that　the　rhetorician　might　make　a　bad　use　of　rhetoric　I　noted　with　surprise　the　inconsistency　into　which　you　had　fallen；　and　I　said；　that　if　you　thought；　as　I　did；　that　there　was　a　gain　in　being　refuted；　there　would　be　an　advantage　in　going　on　with　the　question；　but　if　not；　I　would　leave　off。　And　in　the　course　of　our　investigations；　as　you　will　see　yourself；　the　rhetorician　has　been　acknowledged　to　be　incapable　of　making　an　unjust　use　of　rhetoric；　or　of　willingness　to　do　injustice。　By　the　dog；　Gorgias；　there　will　be　a　great　deal　of　discussion；　before　we　get　at　the　truth　of　all　this。　　　Polus。　And　do　even　you；　Socrates；　seriously　believe　what　you　are　now　saying　about　rhetoric？　What！　because　Gorgias　was　ashamed　to　deny　that　the　rhetorician　knew　the　just　and　the　honourable　and　the　good；　and　admitted　that　to　any　one　who　came　to　him　ignorant　of　them　he　could　teach　them；　and　then　out　of　this　admission　there　arose　a　contradiction…the　thing　which　you　dearly　love；　and　to　which　not　he；　but　you；　brought　the　argument　by　your　captious　questions…＇do　you　seriously　believe　that　there　is　any　truth　in　all　this？＇　For　will　any　one　ever　acknowledge　that　he　does　not　know；　or　cannot　teach；　the　nature　of　justice？　The　truth　is；　that　there　is　great　want　of　manners　in　bringing　the　argument　to　such　a　pass。　　　Soc。　Illustrious　Polus；　the　reason　why　we　provide　ourselves　with　friends　and　children　is；　that　when　we　get　old　and　stumble；　a　younger　generation　may　be　at　hand　to　set　us　on　our　legs　again　in　our　words　and　in　our　actions：　and　now；　if　I　and　Gorgias　are　stumbling；　here　are　you　who　should　raise　us　up；　and　I　for　my　part　engage　to　retract　any　error　into　which　you　may　think　that　I　have　fallen…upon　one　condition：　　　Pol。　What　condition？　　　Soc。　That　you　contract；　Polus；　the　prolixity　of　speech　in　which　you　indulged　at　first。　　　Pol。　What！　do　you　mean　that　I　may　not　use　as　many　words　as　I　please？　　　Soc。　Only　to　think；　my　friend；　that　having　come　on　a　visit　to　Athens；　which　is　the　most　free…spoken　state　in　Hellas；　you　when　you　got　there；　and　you　alone；　should　be　deprived　of　the　power　of　speech…that　would　be　hard　indeed。　But　then　consider　my　case：…shall　not　I　be　very　hardly　used；　if；　when　you　are　making　a　long　oration；　and　refusing　to　answer　what　you　are　asked；　I　am　compelled　to　stay　and　listen　to　you；　and　may　not　go　away？　I　say　rather；　if　you　have　a　real　interest　in　the　argument；　or；　to　repeat　my　former　expression；　have　any　desire　to　set　it　on　its　legs；　take　back　any　statement　which　you　please；　and　in　your　turn　ask　and　answer；　like　myself　and　Gorgias…refute　and　be　refuted：　for　I　suppose　that　you　would　claim　to　know　what　Gorgias　knows…would　you　not？　　　Pol。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　you；　like　him；　invite　any　one　to　ask　you　about　anything　which　he　pleases；　and　you　will　know　how　to　answer　him？　　　Pol。　To　be　sure。　　　Soc。　And　now；　which　will　you　do；　ask　or　answer？　　　Pol。　I　will　ask；　and　do　you　answer　me；　Socrates；　the　same　question　which　Gorgias；　as　you　suppose；　is　unable　to　answer：　What　is　rhetoric？　　　Soc。　Do　you　mean　what　sort　of　an　art？　　　Pol。　Yes。　　　Soc。　To　say　the　truth；　Polus；　it　is　not　an　art　at　all；　in　my　opinion。　　　Pol。　Then　what；　in　your　opinion；　is　rhetoric？　　　Soc。　A　thing　which；　as　I　was　lately　reading　in　a　book　of　yours；　you　say　that　you　have　made　an　art。　　　Pol。　What　thing？　　　Soc。　I　should　say　a　sort　of　experience。　　　Pol。　Does　rhetoric　seem　to　you　to　be　an　experience？　　　Soc。　That　is　my　view；　but　you　may　be　of　another　mind。　　　Pol。　An　experience　in　what？　　　Soc。　An　experience　in　producing　a　sort　of　delight　and　gratification。　　　Pol。　And　if　able　to　gratify　others；　must　not　rhetoric　be　a　fine　thing？　　　Soc。　What　are　you　saying；　Polus？　Why　do　you　ask　me　whether　rhetoric　is　a　fine　thing　or　not；　when　I　have　not　as　yet　told　you　what　rhetoric　is？　　　Pol。　Did　I　not　hear　you　say　that　rhetoric　was　a　sort　of　experience？　　　Soc。　Will　you；　who　are　so　desirous　to　gratify　others；　afford　a　slight　gratification　to　me？　　　Pol。　I　will。　　　Soc。　Will　you　ask　me；　what　sort　of　an　art　is　cookery？　　　Pol。　What　sort　of　an　art　is　cookery？　　　Soc。　Not　an　art　at　all；　Polus。　　　Pol。　What　then？　　　Soc。　I　should　say　an　experience。　　　Pol。　In　what？　I　wish　that　you　would　explain　to　me。　　　Soc。　An　experience　in　producing　a　sort　of　delight　and　gratification；　Polus。　　　Pol。　Then　are　cookery　and　rhetoric　the　same？　　　Soc。　No；　they　are　only　different　parts　of　the　same　profession。　　　Pol。　Of　what　profession？　　　Soc。　I　am　afraid　that　the　truth　may　seem　discourteous；　and　I　hesitate　to　answer；　lest　Gorgias　should　imagine　that　I　am　making　fun　of　his　own　profession。　For　whether　or　no　this　is　that　art　of　rhetoric　which　Gorgias　practises　I　really　cannot　tell：…from　what　he　was　just　now　saying；　nothing　appeared　of　what　he　thought　of　his　art；　but　the　rhetoric　which　I　mean　is　a　part　of　a　not　very　creditable　whole。　　　Gor。　A　part　of　what；　Socrates？　Say　what　you　mean；　and　never　mind　me。　　　Soc。　In　my　opinion　then；　Gorgias；　the　whole　of　which　rhetoric　is　a　part　is　not　an　art　at　all；　but　the　habit　of　a　bold　and　ready　wit；　which　knows　how　to　manage　mankind：　this　habit　I　sum　up　under　the　word　〃flattery〃；　and　it　appears　to　me　to　have　many　other　parts；　one　of　which　is　cookery；　which　may　seem　to　be　an　art；　but；　as　I　maintain；　is　only　an　experience　or　routine　and　not　an　art：…another　part　is　rhetoric；　and　the　art　of　attiring　and　sophistry　are　two　others：　thus　there　are　four　branches；　and　four　different　things　answering　to　them。　And　Polus　may　ask；　if　he　likes；　for　he　has　not　as　yet　been　informed；　what　part　of　flattery　is　rhetoric：　he　did　not　see　that　I　had　not　yet　answered　him　when　he　proceeded　to　ask　a　further　question：　Whether　I　do　not　think　rhetoric　a　fine　thing？　But　I　shall　not　tell　him　whether　rhetoric　is　a　fine　thing　or　not；　until　I　have　first　answered；　〃What　is　rhetoric？〃　For　that　would　not　be　right；　Polus；　but　I　shall　be　happy　to　answer；　if　you　will　ask　me；　What　part　of　flattery　is　rhetoric？　　　Pol。　I　will　ask　and　do　you　answer？　What　part　of　flattery　is　rhetoric？　　　Soc。　Will　you　understand　my　answer？　Rhetoric；　according　to　my　view；　is　the　ghost　or　counterfeit　of　a　part　of　politics。　　　Pol。　And　noble　or　ignoble？　　　Soc。　Ignoble；　I　should　say；　if　I　am　compelled　to　answer；　for　I　call　what　is　bad　ignoble：　though　I　doubt　whether　you　understand　what　I　was　saying　before。　　　Gor。　Indeed；　Socrates；　I　cannot　say　that　I　understand　myself。　　　Soc。　I　do　not　wonder；　Gorgias；　for　I　have　not　as　yet　explained　myself；　and　our　friend　Polus；　colt　by　name　and　colt　by　nature；　is　apt　to　run　away。　　　Gor。　Never　mind　him；　but　explain　to　me　what　you　mean　by　saying　that　rhetoric　is　the　counterfeit　of　a　part　of　politics。　　　Soc。　I　will　try；　then；　to　explain　my　notion　of　rhetoric；　and　if　I　am　mistaken；　my　friend　Polus　shall　refute　me。　We　may　assume　the　existence　of　bodies　and　of　souls？　　　Gor。　Of　course。　　　Soc。　You　would　further　admit　that　there　is　a　good　condition　of　either　of　them？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　Which　condition　may　not　be　really　good；　but　good　only　in　appearance？　I　mean　to　say；　that　there　are　many　persons　who　appear　to　be　in　good　health；　and　whom　only　a　physician　or　trainer　will　discern　at　first　sight　not　to　be　in　good　health。　　　Gor。　True。　　　Soc。　And　this　applies　not　only　to　the　body；　but　also　to　the　soul：　in　either　there　may　be　that　which　gives　the　appearance　of　health　and　not　the　reality？　　　Gor。　Yes；　certainly。　　　Soc。　And　now　I　will　endeavour　to　explain　to　you　more　clearly　what　I　mean：　The　soul　and　body　being　two；　have　two　arts　corresponding　to　them：　there　is　the　art　of　politics　attending　on　the　soul；　and　another　art　attending　on　the　body；　of　which　I　know　no　single　name；　but　which　may　be　described　as　having　two　divisions；　one　of　them　gymnastic；　and　the　other　medicine。　And　in　politics　there　is　a　legislative　part；　which　answers　to　gymnastic；　as　justice　does　to　medicine；　and　the　two　parts　run　into　one　another；　justice　having　to　do　with　the　same　subject　as　legislation；　and　medicine　with　the　same　subject　as　gymnastic；　but　with　a　difference。　Now；　seeing　that　there　are　these　four　arts；　two　attending　on　the　body　and　two　on　the　soul　for　their　highest　good；　flattery　knowing；　or　rather　guessing　their　natures；　has　distributed　herself　into　four　shams　or　simulations　of　them；　she　puts　on　the　likeness　of　some　one　or　other　of　them；　and　pretends　to　be　that　which　she　simulates；　and　having　no　regard　for　men's　highest　interests；　is　ever　making　pleasure　the　bait　of　the　unwary；　and　deceiving　them　into　the　belief　that　she　is　of　the　highest　value　to　them。　Cookery　simulates　the　disguise　of　medicine；　and　pretends　to　know　what　food　is　the　best　for　the　body；　and　if　the　physician　and　the　cook　had　to　enter　into　a　competit